Podcast Episode 38: Polyvagal Theory
Introduction:
Thanks for clicking on Conversations with Crosswinds Counseling. I’m Curtis Smith and I invite you to subscribe to our podcast and to like and share it as well. I hope you enjoy today’s episode.
Podcast #38:
Curtis: Hello everyone, and welcome to conversations with Crosswinds Counseling. I’m your host Curtis Smith. Today, we are joined by Steven Weaver, one of the great counselors at Crosswinds Counseling in Fort Wayne. Stephen, thanks for being with us.
Stephen: Hey, no problem
Curtis: We are talking today about something I don’t know much about, but Stephen you’re going to explain to us Polyvagal Theory. What is the Polyvagal Theory?
Stephen: Polyvagal Theory is something that’s been developed in the past, gosh I don’t even know how many years, 30 years by Steven Porges. He was like a I think he was a doctor – not really sure in his background, but he brought this kind of view of the vagus nerve that runs through our body, touches a lot of our major organs, but it’s in what they’re finding more and more is that it’s involved in protection of the body physiologically, emotionally, that kind of stuff. So, bringing that into session, what I’ve used it for was really normalizing things for a lot of people, and it kind of blows their minds at times. Right. Because they’re like, ‘Wait, my body does that and that’s normal?’ You know, that kind of thing. I’m like. Yeah. Depression, which is the dorsal vagal function, sympathetic function, anger, anxiety, those things are normal, and it’s a way of our body protecting itself. So, it’s really a good tool to kind of normalize things at first.
Curtis: And that sounds important to me, not being a therapist, but why is that important, to normalize those things? Because I think a lot of us think, ‘I’m feeling anxious,’ ‘I’m feeling depressed,’ ‘I’m feeling -’ whatever and that is abnormal. I’m weird. What’s wrong with me? Those kind of thoughts. So, talk about the importance of normalizing those things.
Stephen: Right, so for example, dorsal vagal is everything diaphragm, and below. That’s kind of where the dorsal vagal is. It’s the least wrapped part of the vagus nerve, and it has to deal – it’s kind of like what they say, the least developed, or it has the – it’s kind of like reminiscent of what mainly what reptiles do, the lesser developed life forms out there. They usually shut down, basically. Like play dead. It’s like playing possum. Right. And after a while, that, if everything’s cool, they get up and it’s like nothing ever happened. They can even stop breathing for a long period of time, like they’re actually dead.
Curtis: Really?
Stephen: And we have that function in our body too, and that’s depression. So, realizing that people are like, ‘Oh, you know when I shut down, when I just need to rest for a while, that’s not abnormal. That’s just something my body is telling me it needs at the time.’ And it has, and it also correlates with physiological stuff of energy conservation. So, it’s like I’m conserving energy to get through a storm of some kind. Right. I’m conserving energy because I can’t get out of a situation that I’m stuck in. So, we get depressed to make it through that. And that’s a huge important function of our body, and just to realize that is really important for people.
Curtis: I don’t know if I’ve ever heard that kind of correlation between depression and death. It’s somewhat similar. It causes the body to shut down. Even animals might stop breathing for a while. That’s fascinating.
Stephen: Oh, yeah depression dissociation, which is feeling outside of your body, um numbness, um even the eventual death. The dorsal vagal function, what they’re finding is that It prepares you for death. It’s like numbing you out so that you don’t have to feel that pain at the end, but it also does so when it – just when we have that shutdown phase too. Right. So, it’s vastly important. There’s so many functions to it, but it’s like to me, it just like opening that up to people is amazing you know. It’s like our bodies are amazing.
Curtis: When do you decide to bring that into counseling? You just said, ‘opening it up to people,’ so I’m – I assume you’re going through a session with somebody and there’s something that triggers the thought in you of this might be the time to open them up to polyvagal. What are some of those triggers? What are some of those signs that cause you to think this would be a good time to bring it in.
Stephen: I think it’s when people like say, ‘I’ve always had – for example – anxiety,’ or difficulty with anger. ‘I am an angry person.’ I’m like, ‘No. You’re body gets angry for a reason.’ Right. So that’s sympathetic. That’s in your chest area. Anger, anxiety have almost the same function. They’re both about energy – um, not conservation but fuel availability.
Curtis: Huh.
Stephen: So, it’s about running away or running towards something and fighting it. But just letting them know that that’s a natural thing that your body needs to do is kind of like again a revelation to them. So, when it, when someone says, ‘I just am a certain way.’ ‘I am depressed.’ ‘I am anxious.’ I’m like, ‘Well, no you’re a lot more than that, and that’s just your body working pretty well. Maybe too well. We got to talk about it.’ Right. It could get chronic for a long time for a lot of people, but just understanding first what your body’s doing is normal is very important for people, and that kind of takes them out of that mindset of, ‘I’m just stuck in this.’ You know.
Curtis: Yeah. What does that revelation look like when the light bulb goes off for somebody and they start to see this from a new perspective? What do you then see in their words, and their behaviors, and their thoughts as they digest this information and then then move forward with it.
Stephen: Well, I mean it usually a lot of people just sit there and think about this like they don’t – they’re kind of incorporating it into themselves, but then I kind of move them into a process of creating a profile of what it looks like for them to be in those frames, those modes, those phases. Like what does it look like to be in dorsal vagal for them? What does it look like to be sympathetic, and then also what does it look like to be one’s called ventral vagal which is the most wrapped part of the nerve, which is being in the moment present with someone, and that’s protective too, because I then – this is how I relate it to people. I always go, ‘Do you ever see wolves alone or do you see them in packs?’ And they say, ‘Well, I see them in packs.’ Why? Because there’s power in numbers, and that’s the higher evolved, I guess – or whatever you want to call the higher organisms in this world have learned, I guess, or have this part of their vagus nerve to kind of work together, and that’s why we feel better together. That’s why we get depressed alone.
Curtis: Right.
Stephen: So, anyway, what I do is I work with them to kind of like say where do I stand in all these phases? What does it look like for me personally you know to be dorsal vagal? To be sympathetic? To be vental vagal? And then they kind of like turns the light, ‘Oh man, these are the things I do,’ because I think being aware is very important of what we’re doing and connecting that to the body is important too. If that makes sense.
Curtis: Yeah. It does. How important is it for us to not label ourselves with our worst traits, or these things that seem like they’re dominating our lives? They feel overwhelming at times. Like depression and anxiety. You mentioned earlier, you’re more than that. How important is it just simply to get that awareness to say, ‘I’m not just this. I’m not someone – I might have some depression right now, but I’m not a depressed person,’ and not let it define them in its entirety. How important is it to move out of that phase.
Stephen: Very important. I think a lot of people use very like putting me in a prison kind of you know words like, ‘I am a depressed person,’ versus,’I’m having – I’m just depressed right now.’ So, I always use the two terms, ‘for now,’ and, ‘at the same time.’ So I say, ‘For now I’m depressed.’ Okay. Cool. You got to be. We all get depressed. Hallelujah. Right. And at the same time, I’m excited cuz I can kind of see the way out of here. You know. Or I’m excited about my upcoming birthday party. Who knows what’s coming up. Right. But just recognizing multiplicity inside of someone gets you out of that kind of one way of thinking. ‘I am an angry person,’ or, ‘I am depressed,’ because that can really cause us problems. It puts us in a kind of a mental jail in a way. Right.
Curtis: Yeah. I love that. ‘At the same time.’ I saw a clip recently on social media of someone who died by suicide, and the clip was from I think just the day before, and she was very happy, and very joyful and that’s the thought when you said that. At the same time. I can be depressed right now, but at the same time I’m happy about someone’s birthday, or happy about today, what happened at work today.
Stephen: Yeah.
Curtis: We’re more than one thing. We have these dynamic personalities which is good, but it can also, it can also mask a lot of the other stuff. This woman that I saw on social media did not look like someone who would have died by suicide the next day, but she was because we’re very complex. So, working through this, as a therapist, for you has to be very complex I would assume.
Stephen: Right. And that’s the Polyvagal Theory. Right. It’s a complex thing. It’s like man I can go through all these phases in like 15 minutes. I could be angry. I could get depressed a little bit, and then I’ll be happy again. Right. And that’s all normal. That’s just the way we are as humans you know. We go through these phases and to take people through that and just say, ‘Look, you’re normal.’ Yeah. Yeah, we can work on maybe evening that out a little bit, but you’re not a depressed person. You’re a wonderful creation, and it’s awesome. Just kind of like lead them toward that understanding that even their bodies, just what they carry around with them every day for like what 30 years or so is like an amazing thing.
Curtis: Yeah.
Stephen: And they – just having them realize that through polyvagal or stuff – like that is just like wonderful to see sometimes. You know.
Curtis: Well, Stephen thanks. This has been a good intellectual conversation for me. Coming into this I didn’t know anything about the Polyvagal Theory. So, I appreciate it. I assume people out there do as well. If you think you might benefit from these kinds of conversations, and digging into this and doing the work of understanding who you are, and helping you to get healthier with one of the counselors here at Crosswinds. You can reach out to us at crosswindscounseling.org. We thank you for joining us on the podcast and we will see you next time.
Outro:
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